Which is safer for your dog, commercial or raw food?
Your vet would probably answer ‘commercial food’
Last summer, the Huffington Post featured and article called “Is Raw Food Safe for Dogs” in which Vet Marty Becker came down firmly on the side of commercial pet foods.
Dr Becker is not alone in his view. It is widely supported by veterinary professionals, both in North America and here in the UK.
Also last year, the American Veterinary Medicine Association took a vote on a new policy officially confirming their stance against the feeding of raw food to pet dogs and cats.
You can read this new policy here: AVMA Policy
I think that it is quite interesting to turn this question around and ask the equally valid question – ‘is kibble safe for our dogs’. But do we have the answers?
A question of balance
“Is Raw Food Safe For Dogs” was the question which Marty Becker was answering in his Huffington Post column.
I can fully understand why an individual vet might be reluctant to endorse a diet of raw meat and bones in our litigious society. I did however think the Marty Becker’s response to this question about the safety of feeding dogs raw chicken wings, was not a particularly balanced one.
As a scientist, I think it is important to look at evidence on both sides of a debate before giving an answer to a question like this.
I would have liked to have seen some more consideration given to the possibility that a carbohydrate based diet might have its own disadvantages for an animal that is essentially carnivorous.
Let’s look at the risks
I have not been able to find any research that supports the conjecture that eating raw chicken wings for example, is more harmful to dogs than the commercially prepared kibbles which the majority of dogs eat on a daily basis.
There are strong opinions on both sides of the debate, but no trials have been published to date, that compare these two very different ways of feeding our dogs.
It may seem obvious at first glance that splintered bones must be risky for a dog to eat. These bones are really sharp! Likewise, we all know that raw chicken is crawling in germs. How could we risk making our dogs sick by feeding it raw chicken?
But here is my question: How many meals does it take on average, to injure a raw fed dog? What is the risk in a dog’s lifetime? Is it ten percent, one in a million? It is important that we know the answer to this, because nothing in life, including the consumption of kibble, is risk free.
How many meals does it take?
I am a gundog enthusiast. I have five dogs. I have been feeding five dogs raw chicken bones for over seven years. Each dog has either chicken or rabbit bones (both of which splinter when the dog crunches them up) most days, sometimes twice a day. Make no mistake, just because they are raw bones, does not mean they do not splinter. They do splinter, the splinters are sharp, and my dogs swallow them. It can be quite frightening to watch.
Seven years of feeding five dogs once or twice a day amounts to some 15,000 to 20,000 meals. That is just me and my dogs.
I have many friends with several dogs that feed them in the same way. One such friend, also a gundog trainer, has around 20 dogs, and has been feeding raw for a few years longer than I have. Say at least 50,000 meals.
Now multiply that by all the hundreds of other raw feeders in my home county. You are probably looking at millions of meals. So how many meals does it take, before an injury occurs? How many such injuries do vets see?
The problem is, no-one knows the answers to these questions. All we have is anecdotal evidence.
I personally have never had a dog that has been injured through eating raw bones. Nor do I personally know anyone whose dog has been injured through eating raw bones.
I spent almost a year researching the subject before switching my dogs to raw and was unable to find anyone whose dog had been injured through eating raw bones. Though I am sure they do exist.
This proves nothing
Let’s be clear that the above facts, whilst they are real facts, do not prove anything.
They do not mean that a raw food diet is safe for dogs. They only tell us that the raw food diet has not harmed those particular dogs yet. Just as the fact that several hundred kibble fed dogs in any one group does not prove that kibble is safe.
And I have no doubt that somewhere, someone’s dog has been harmed by eating raw chicken bones. Just as someone’s dog somewhere has probably been harmed by eating kibble.
My point is, that it is just possible that the risks of injury through consumption of raw bones may have been overstated.
So what about the risk of disease?
One of the studies quoted in the resolution above is a study by Joffe and Schlesinger. This is the ‘abstract’ which sums up the essence of the study.
This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.
As we all know, raw chicken is not safe for human consumption!
It frequently contains salmonella, a potentially serious source of infection. I can’t remember how old I was when I first discovered that raw chicken was dangerous. Around five or six?
Raw chicken is one of the most widely understood and well publicised health hazards in any kitchen. We all understand the importance of cooking thoroughly and washing surfaces that have come into contact with it.
What I find interesting is that dogs are able to eat raw chicken with no ill effect.
What I also find interesting is the fact that the AVMA are not suggesting that we all stop handling raw chicken or preparing it for our own consumption. Just that we stop giving it to our dogs, animals that are clearly able to consume it without ill effect.
Are you lost yet?
Apparently the AVMA are also worried about the fact that Salmonella was found in 30% of stool samples of dogs fed on raw chicken!
What a surprise!
Stop Press: Dogs’ bottoms are dirty!
Do I need to remind you to wash your hands after handling dog faeces, or raw chicken? I thought not.
Unsurprisingly, the person asking the question in the Huffington Post, did not ask if dog faeces were safe to eat. They clearly are not. She asked if raw food was safe for dogs.
It seems to me that the issue of the safety of a raw diet for dogs compared with commercial food is being wilfully muddled up with an entirely separate issue. That of hygienic handling of raw chicken (whether for animal or pet consumption) and the hygienic disposal of dog faeces, which undoubtedly contain plenty of pathogens, including salmonella.
Two separate issues
I do not for one moment want to diminish the importance of the risk of people getting sick from being contaminated by raw meat, and through contact with dogs that are contaminated with raw meat. This is a risk, especially where small children are concerned, and is one that I will address in another article.
However, it is mischievous to muddle these two issues, the health of our dogs and our risks of contamination from raw meat. The fact is that thousands upon thousands of dogs eat raw chicken nearly every day of their lives and come to no harm.
To turn back to the question of safe food for dogs, it seems to me that the important question we should be asking is not ‘is raw food harmful’ but rather ‘is raw food safer than ‘kibble’ (or vice versa)
Our dogs have to eat something after all. And what could possibly be harmful about kibble?
Is kibble risk free?
Well, at least those who feed their pets on commercially prepared food don’t have to worry about salmonella.
Or do they?
Actually, they do. If you look at this page on the FDA’s website you will find a list of recent pet food recalls. There were five recalls in March 2013 alone which were due to contamination with Salmonella!
These food recalls have been in the headlines, many of them quite recently, and show us that commercial pet foods do sometimes get contaminated, and that that contamination can be serious and can affect our dogs.
However, even if such contaminations were rare and unlikely to happen again, there are other issues that need to be considered when feeding a carbohydrate based food to an essentially carnivorous animal.
A change in diet
Commercial kibble is a basically carbohydrate based complete dried pelleted dog food. The main ingredient is usually a cereal such as wheat, maize, or rice.
Kibble is fortified with all the nutrients that a dog needs and thousands, if not millions, of dogs have now been eating kibble for thirty to forty years. Until the 1970s most dogs were fed on meat (canned, raw, or cooked) with added scraps or dog meal in some cases.
So are dogs healthier now than in pre-kibble days?
We actually do not know what effect, if any, this relatively recent change in the way we feed our dogs has had.
We do know that the consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates is not necessary for dogs (they can derive all their nutrients without it). And that there is a good deal of interest at the moment in the role that carbohydrates may play in disease and in obesity, both in humans and dogs.
We do know that kibble is not a perfect diet. Dogs that are kibble fed are more likely to need their teeth cleaning (usually under general anaesthetic with the risk that entails) whereas raw fed dogs like mine maintain white teeth into old age.
One study has associated certain types of kibble with a potentially fatal condition called gastric dilation and volvulus (GDV) Most of you will know this as bloat. Another quite recent (2012) study of other 2,000 dogs has associated dry kibble generally with a higher incidence of bloat.
However, we simply do not know if long term kibble feeding compares well with raw feeding when measured against a whole range of other factors such as longevity, fertility, disease, etc.
Banfield Pet Hospital recently release a report showing that chronic diseases and obesity amongst pets were steadily increasing. Most vets will agree that they are seeing increasing numbers of obese dogs.
An increasing number of experts are now beginning to look at the suspicious link between the relatively sudden and massive rise in obesity in the western world, and the vilifying of fat and idolising of carbohydrates that led to the largely carb based diet we (and our dogs) have been consuming since the 70s.
That is a whole other story, but food for thought.
The fact is, most dog owners now feed their pets on carbs. Whereas fifty years ago, dogs were fed predominantly on meat and fat. And we don’t know what effect this is having, if any, on our dog’s longevity or susceptibility to disease.
Is kibble harming our dogs?
I am not interested in pursuing a raw diet for my dogs because it is ‘natural’ . Nor am I interested in wild claims made by either the pro-raw lobby, or the anti-raw lobby.
As a scientist and I am interested in evidence. The big problem here is that there isn’t very much of it!
It is certainly beginning to look as though the owners of dogs at risk from bloat should think very carefully before feeding kibble.
I have no idea whether or not obesity, cancer, and other diseases that are increasing in dogs, are more prevalent in kibble fed dogs than those fed a raw diet. But I would really like to see some proper studies done.
And until a long term study is carried out comparing dogs fed in these two very different ways, we are unlikely to be any the wiser.
Making ridiculous comments about the risks of handling raw chicken, which most of us prepare in our kitchens on a weekly basis, and on the risks of contamination from dog faeces which is blindingly obvious to anyone over the age of ten, really do not get to the heart of this issue.
Insulting dog owners’ intelligence is unlikely to convince them to follow the principles embraced in the resolution of the AVMA, nor will it instil us with more faith in the veterinary profession
We need to see vets and their professional bodies demonstrating a more balanced and scientific approach to this whole subject and actually discussing the evidence, and looking at the risks and benefits to dogs themselves from consuming raw food on a daily basis.
We need vets to show an interest in comparing and learning about these different approaches, instead of trotting out the same old ‘dogs are not wolves’ and ‘you’ll get salmonella’ responses we have grown to expect.,
We want to know if kibble is a safer option over the lifetime of a dog than raw food, and we need to see any conclusions backed up with evidence through studies that are sponsored by independent bodies without a vested interest. Not by commercial dog food manufacturers.
Are vets are driving raw feeders away?
More and more people are feeding their dogs on raw meat. For all kinds of reasons. Many of them are doing so without the knowledge and support of their vets.
Many of them, I am sad to say, are also getting poor quality health advice on the internet from people that are feeding raw meat with religious fervour and in the belief that it will cure a whole range of conditions often unrelated to diet.
I see people being advised not to worm or vaccinate their dogs on raw feeding groups and to treat dogs that are obviously in need of veterinary attention, with more raw food.
There are people following this advice because they feel they cannot approach their vet, or because he has advised them in the strongest possible terms, that they must feed kibble.
Surely it is time for vets to take an interest in raw feeding, to recognise the sheer numbers of people that are quietly getting on with feeding their dogs in this way, without disaster or injury.
We need our vets to be equipped to offer people advice on the best way to feed raw, how to balance a raw diet, the proportions of bone their dogs should be eating and much more. Until they do, people will continue to seek advice from those that lack the knowledge and experience to offer effective support.
Interesting article. I keep quiet when the vet asks what I feed my dog as I feed raw too and have a healthy, lean dog with a fantastic coat. I am not too fervent, he occasionally gets kibble or a pack of food and various treats. So far, he has been pretty healthy and the odd tummy complaint is I think mainly from drinking yukky water from some disgusting pond which he obviously thinks is delicious …..
Thanks for your comment Clare, I have never worked out why dogs prefer filthy pond water to the nice clean stuff we provide 🙂
maybe pond or other water doesnt have a smell to it, maybe chlorine or tap water does and the dog may not prefer it
I had a beagle that had a anal scent gland infection. After being on antibiotics for a month he insisted on going out the front door. I didn’t know why because he always was let out into the back yard. After sitting by the front door for two days I let him go out front. He immediately went to the fish pond and drank the water. Then next day he was by the front door again. I let him out again and he went directly to the fish pond and drank. That was it. He didn’t want to go out front again. Why did he do that? He somehow knew that the antibiotics had killed all the useful bacteria in his stomach and he needed something to get his digestive system going again. If I had of given him yogurt maybe the good bacteria would have been regenerated. So dogs are pretty smart creatures and that beagle was smarter than I was.
I have read this article with great interest. Fox hound packs have been fed for 300 years on raw meat. This said the balance of this is that they are only fed three times a week after work ( about 75miles a day) so it replicates a wild dog and are the closest thing to a wild pack. A wild pack hunts, gorges then sleeps till it all starts again.
Domestic dogs are just that.. Domestic and our pets. Not many would disagree that they dont have enough work and any high protein diet will result in unruly behaviour. Raw meat is expensive and a ready meal for dogs much more convenient. The Manufacturers like happy pet owners so no expense is spared in producing a complete balanced meal for dogs.
Why would any one want to turn back time I wonder. pets are not wild packs any more so why feed them as if they are?. They live longer than a wild dog ( or foxhound)…..and thery drink water out of ponds because there is no chlorine it…they can smell much better than us!
Hi Sue, and thanks for your comment. My own dogs do not work in the summer, and I saw no changes in behaviour or temperament when I switched from kibble to raw. Nor have I come across anyone else that has had such a problem. I agree that kibble is more convenient, and feeding raw properly can work out very expensive if you don’t have access to a free source of meat as I do.
Raw feeding is not for everyone, but there are advantages, just as there are advantages to kibble. I will be looking at these over the next few weeks so watch this space 🙂
And good point about the chlorine!
Pippa
The vets I go to are refreshingly open-minded about raw feeding. They just suggested a blood test after three months of raw feeding to ensure she is getting all the nutrients she needs. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me!
Excellent, what a good idea 🙂
Not all vets are anti raw! At the practices I work for we strive to support clients whatever their food choice as both commercially prepared wet and dry foods and home-prepared raw of cooked diets can both have their pros and cons. I am teaching a vet nurse CPD evening in the summer on raw feeding to help them support clients better too.
My own dogs eat raw 5 days a week with kibble on 2 days (so they will still eat it in kennels, on overnight trips etc). Big bones can break teeth (my 9 1/2 year olg has clean but rather worn gnashers) and two of them have swallowed chicken wings without chewing and got them stuck in their throats (scary but not fatal!).
So nice to read a balanced article on dog feeding which doesn’t go wild one way or the other!
Thanks Vicky, and great to hear of a vet who offers support to raw feeding clients too. 🙂
On the cost/health side I still maintain that over time raw feeding pays for itself in saved vet bills. Wondering if I can factor in a cost for the pleasure I get from watching my dogs really enjoy their raw.
I really enjoyed reading such a well thought out argument on how best we should feed our dogs. We have three raw fed dogs and I find the cost to be lower than feeding them kibble. Chicken wings, necks and carcasses from the local abattoir are extremely cheap, for example 120 carcasses for £4 and human grade mis shapen chicken wings at 60p per kg.
I agree it would be super if someone with no vested interest in either feeding method could commission research to answer questions we all have – whether we be raw meat or kibble feeders.
Thanks Elisabeth, glad you enjoyed the article, and it is great that you have found such a good source of cheap meaty bones. 🙂
I’m a vet student with a young springer x labrador. She eats mainly dry food when we’re away at university and mainly raw food when we are at home although I’ve never fed raw chicken (not for any particular reason). I would gladly feed more raw food but it is impractical in my current living situation whilst at univerisity.
On a slight side note, my gundog trainer is always discouraging me from feeding protein to my dog because he says protein makes dogs hyperactive – whilst I strongly dispute this, I think it is intersting that this belief exists.
As part of my veterinary degree, we recently had some nutrition lectures one of which was on feeding domestic pets. The lecturer was very good and mentioned all sorts of diets including BARF, vegan and holistic diets. He mentioned many of the things you have; the plethora of information of varying quality, lack of good quality knowledge based on scientific evidence, people’s tendency not to disclose “alternative” feeding strategies to their vets and above all the lack of veterinary involvement in people’s feeding regimes.
He did mention that shedding salmonella amongst other pathogens is a concern (remember the risk is not just from faeces but saliva and possible contact with the paws etc.) but was not dismissive of feeding any alternative if armed with appropriate knowledge.
I would be very interested in any future studies on the affects of raw feeding.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments Cat. It is good to know that your nutrition lectures are addressing these important issues. I think that studies are badly needed but have no idea how they would be funded. I agree that the issue of contamination from contact with raw fed dogs is a concern. I personally feel that a raw fed dog may not be an ideal ‘playmate’ for example, for a small child. It is an interesting topic isn’t it!
Pippa
Too much protein causing excitability is definitley a myth. Dogs need animal protein to supply the amino acids required for conversion to brain chemicals vital for learning.
Anecdotal evidence suggests a high level of vegetable protein may cause excitability though.
“Anecdotal evidence suggests a high level of vegetable protein may cause excitability though.”
Interesting!
Nice to read a balanced and well rounded article. I would agree that sometimes we endow raw feeding with far too many powers and risk making it seem like a ‘dark art’ which is off putting to people who would otherwise feed raw.
I have young children who play with my Labrador constantly. No one has been adversely affected by the food that she eats.
The ‘dark art’ feel doesn’t stop when you visit the vet. our local practice has one nurse and one vet who feed raw. they are banned from discussing what they feed even if a customer asks the direct question. they are expected to sell Royal Canin. the vet has been disciplined for discussing raw feeding.
i am concerned that if the dog becomes ill, the vets will be put the blame on to what we feed her. i’ll just fight that battle when it happens. I don’t think you’ll get the vast majority of vets to recommend or even accept raw feeding as it is not a commercial food that they can financially benefit from. I believe that practices’ primary focus is to make a profit and profit doesn’t come from pets eating raw food.
Thanks for your comment Sarah, though the conclusion you have come to about your vet’s practice is kind of sad 🙁
My vets do sell kibble, but, I really believe that they put animal welfare first, and would not recommend something they believed was not beneficial.
I like to think that the majority of vets do still put animals first.
Hope I’m not wrong.
Pippa
i enjoyed all the comments. we feed our puppy (nearly 12 months) on raw, we have had mostly 100 percent success. some days she doesnt want to eat, i did a lot of reading about this, as for the vet, why would they need to know, if there remit is to offer commercial instead. i would prefer honesty but i wouldnt want to lose the service of a vet purely on whether they preferred or abstained what i chose to feed our dog on. as for the waste matter, it appears healthy enough to me. we tried a lot of different varieties before sticking with raw and she struggled with all of them. there are days i give her pieces of granary bread spread with marmite, or peanut butter, apart from this, its mostly raw.
Thanks, that was interesting and useful and nice to read something about raw feeding that was informative and didn’t just feel all religious in tone! I’ve experimented with raw feeding in the past, and our 2 labs still get regular meaty bones. Our vet is positive about this and commented in particular on the whiteness of their teeth, attributing it to the regular bones and encouraging us to keep giving them to them.
But they are now mainly kibble fed, partly just because of the ease of it and the difficulty of getting and keeping enough raw meat – we live rurally and not that close to a town or butcher. One of the other things that put me off a bit though was watching our older lab swallow whole – without even so much as a single chew – a large chicken leg. She just gulps them down whole and in seconds, and she has done this more than once. It was a bit of a worrying sight, luckily it didn’t get stuck but I can imagine it might and that put me off feeding chicken.
I wonder too if there are further divisions to be made in the discussion- after all there is raw meat and raw meat and there is kibble and kibble (maybe?) I certainly worry about the quality of some of the raw meat available for dogs via butchers etc – some of it is probably full of crap – given the state of our industrial-agricultural system – as in chemicals, hormones and other bad stuff. never mind the animal welfare issues – I find it hard to feed our dogs food I wouldn’t eat myself on animal welfare grounds. And some kibble is surely worse than others, do you think? We feed our two on Burns, because it seems to be higher quality and it is certainly the only food that helps our younger lab (who has mild colitis) with his tummy. But I don’t know how that would compare with say the cheapest, supermarket-owned brands of kibble. I’m certainly shocked by the amount of pet food that has sugar added to it and have taken to reading the labels of everything before I buy it. Why do dog biscuits need sugar? I even discovered sugar added to marks and spencer’s dog biltong treats recently, so didn’t buy.
I think the other thing in favour of raw meaty diets is the obvious joy and mental stimulation dogs get from it. Instead of gulping down their kibble in 30 seconds flat, whenever our labs get a big bone they spend hours outside on the grass, gnawing happily away and absorbed mentally as well as physically. Its lovely to watch them having so much enjoyment.
Thanks for your thoughts Kirsty, I am sure kibbles do very widely in quality. The additives, including sugar, are probably there to make it more palatable and in some cases to act as preservatives. I am not sure about ‘recreational bones’ as all the cases of ‘impaction’ that I have read about have been in dogs that were fed bones separately from a meal. I guess it is a good idea to make sure that they are nice and meaty.
With gulpers, and I had a puppy that did this for a while, I smash the longer chicken bones with a hammer (still wrapped in the meat). So that the leg is a floppy parcel with the bone tucked inside. Yes, this does presumably splinter the bone, but the dog splinters it anyway when he bites down on it.
Another solution is simply to feed a larger item so that the dog is forced to break it down before swallowing.
Some dogs will gulp bones if they are being watched. So I always leave my dogs to eat bones alone.
I agree about the pleasure dogs get from an RMB meal. As Mike said it is hard to put a price on that. 🙂
Pippa
I cannot thank you enough for this article. The problem is that most of us have been and still are brainwashed by kibble producers and their distributors: vets. I came across RMB 2 years ago and I feel guilty that never doubted all that multibillion brainwashing industry. My Irish Setter puppy eats whole chicken carcass every day since she was 4 months, and I never had any problems. My 12,5 yo Gordon Setter got second youth after starting RMB. It seems complicated but it is so easy. I would recommend Tom Lonsdale website and books. Logic explanation of dogs’ anatomy: their teeth and stomach are not created to consume carbohydrates etc. Raw feeding scheme is simple and pre-calculated. Tom Lonsdale is qualified vet, UK graduate, member of RCVS. Yet when I try to educate fellow dog walkers or share my experience they look at me as I am mental…Chicken bones? Scary. Fresh eggs? Brrr…salmonella. Dry food – product of rendering factories? Nonsense they say.
People will trust and follow experts like Dr Lonsdale or you, so thank you. again.
Interesting article. I have never fed a raw meat diet to my dog, so have no experience to contribute. As a vet, however, I am open to the idea that my clients have to make an informed choice on how to feed their pets.
Quite frankly, I struggle to give them accurate information, simply because I don’t feel that there is a reliable (independent) source for me to go to. And this may compound the issue of clients witholding on how they feed their pets.
It is also very difficult for me to give accurate advice when I do have clients feeding a BARF diet to their pets while there are concurrent health issues…
Also, there are dogs, and there are dogs. Surely the choice of how to feed and WHAT to feed should be tailored to the individual owner (as far as lifestyle and cost) as well as their pet (behaviour, breed conformity etc)? There is no ‘one size fits all’ with people, so why should it be so for pets?
Thanks for your comment Paik. The lack of reliable sources for anyone to go to on this topic is a cause for concern. Ideally, surely dog owners should be able to get this kind of advice from their vets. Obviously this would then need to be a part of veterinary training. And studies would need to be carried out to provide the relevant data so that sound advice based on evidence, could be offered to dog owners.
Whilst I agree that no one size fits all, with the right studies it would be possible to assemble a set of basic guidelines to raw feeders including the proportions of bone/muscle/organ meats to feed, whether or not to include vegetable matter (as in BARF) which I do not (as in RMB), whether or not dogs can safely be exercised after eating bones (I avoid this for fear it will increase the risk of a splinter rupturing the digestive tract) And so on. Plenty of websites offer advice on these topics, many claim dogs should eat no more than 10% bone (I feed a higher proportion than this) but there is no data to back them up.
Interestingly, I notice that Pedigree Pet Foods are currently running an advert on TV claiming that 4 out of 5 dogs over the age of three has gum disease. I find this a shocking statistic. Surely a study comparing gum disease between raw fed and kibble fed dogs is long overdue? Wanting my dogs to have ‘healthy mouths’ is the reason I switched to raw and one of the most widely claimed benefits of raw feeding. Yet there is no data to back up the anecdotal evidence.
It is heartening that the vet student who posted above has had information on raw feeding included in lectures. As more people seem to be feeding raw without the guidance that they need, hopefully more progress will be made soon.
Pippa
I now feed my dogs what I call unprocessed food. After many years of feeding “supreme quality” kibble to my dogs, I went back to what I and my parents had fed dogs.
I have completed papers on dog husbandry at a Veterinary School as well as at a Polytechnic. All courses on feeding dogs were based on research done by the makers of dog food. I also found out that vets are taught very little about nutrition. They find out most of the information from company reps who visit vet clinics regularly with special offers and the latest products. Really, it is the vet nurse who does most of the nutrition advice. The vet nurse is also the one who is in direct regular contact with the company reps.
I do, on occasion, recommend to clients that they feed high quality kibble. When it is obvious that the person has neither the ability or inclination to feed a good unprocessed diet. Over my years in working with people and their dogs I have found many cases of dogs being fed a very inappropriate diet and I can sympathise with vets who err on the side of caution and recommend a processed diet. So many people will say they are feeding something but in reality will go for an inadequate cheaper or quicker option. In these cases the dogs do benefit from a “high quality” processed diet.
Surely it’s not that protein makes your dog (or you!) hyperactive but that carbs make you sluggish? Protein+training=fab dog with plenty of energy! 🙂 Likewise humans..but that’s another topic! I feel that in however many years time people will look back and wonder why we didn’t join the dots sooner between dog and human obesity and consumption of carbs.
Ps have fed my lab on raw (chicken backs, ox heart, sardines, liver and kidneys)(plus carrots just cos she likes them) for 7 or 8 months now and she has gone from frequently upset tummy and general horribleness and dry skin and smelly to gleaming coat, no smell and a perfectly healthy tummy. She hasn’t been to the vet since other than for booster jabs/check up. Her health improved literally in a day. I do worry, not about bones so much, but about whether she should have veg or not. I cannot get hold of green tripe anywhere and slightly wonder if she is getting everything she needs. I haven’t told the vet. He thinks she eats Burns (which is what she started on. When she was in the vet a lot for an upset tummy they sold me (at huge expense) royal canin sensitive and it made her worse. I then read the ingredients and they were worse than what she’d been eating before. It was then that I changed her to raw and she was better almost instantly and I haven’t looked back. It’s not for everyone, definitely, and it works out more expensive where I live but is cheap when I’m in the countryside with my mum. I wish I could tell my vet but I can’t face the lecture.
So many people feel like you about telling their vet. Glad your dog is doing so well on raw 🙂
I have read this article with great interest. I have a 1yo Welsh Springer Spaniel who I have raw fed since she was a pup (including Green Tripe, which she loves. ROSAMUND I buy this from the rawtogo website but there are other companies out there too) . She is a VERY lively dog & I struggle with her recall and focus particularly when we are doing Agility.
I recently took a urine sample to my vet as she was still having incidents of wetting inside the house. This led to a discussion on what I feed her and the vet nurse told me that she’d had the same experience with her Weimaraners. It was suggested that I mix in some Skinner’s Maintenance kibble to lower her protein intake as it had made a significant difference with her dogs. I thought I would try this as nothing else was working. I have to admit that she is definitely calmer around the house & I have noticed a slight improvement in the Agility ring but she will still run off and escape from the ring if she gets the chance! I have had no more wetting incidents..
By chance I have just ordered Pippa’s Total Recall book this evening and look forward to reading it at great length as this is something that needs to be addressed with Amber. But I am still struggling with deciding what to feed her that will be the best thing for her. I totally agree that the evidence base for the Raw vs Kibble is severely lacking. I can only go by my own experience over the past year. Amber clearly enjoys her RMB and has sparkling teeth!
I discussed this with our tutor last week and she mentioned that some people gets confused about the type of protein that a dog is fed & it’s effect on their behaviour. VICKY mentioned this earlier. I am unable to find any further discussion on this.
Anyway many thanks Pippa for a great article!
Thanks for your comments Karen, I hope you enjoy the book 🙂
Hi Pippa,
I’m so glad I’ve read your article and the follow up comments. I came across it having just returned from the (expensive) emergency vet from my 8 week old choc lab puppy, Amber, who I have had 2 days. I also have a five month old black lab cross, Treacle, who I have been feeding raw since she was 10 weeks. Treacle has been the perfect dog, also healthy, calm, confident and easy to train.
Amber LOVED raw chicken wings I gave her on her first evening and all day Saturday but unfortunately became very lethargic on Sunday, combined with runny stools. When she vomited up the minced pork, totally undigested, that she had eaten 4 hours previously on Sunday evening I decided that I should take her to the vet. She didn’t have a temperature and recovered within 12 hours with only rehydration treatment, no anti-biotics, so I don’t know if she had an infection or what caused her illness.
The vet was appalled that I had given her raw food and told me that it is nonsense that dogs have stronger stomach acid than us and are designed to eat raw meat. I am left confused about what to feed her now but when and if I go back to raw I know I must find another vet, but where? The nearest I can find on the Internet is 10miles away. I really need some balanced advice.
Betty
Hi Betty,
Finding a supportive vet is really helpful if you are going to feed a raw diet. There could be many reasons for Amber’s upset tummy, many pups have tummy troubles after moving home, which is a stressful experience. If Amber has been raised on kibble by her breeder, then the sudden change could have upset her. I always feed pups on whatever the breeder used, then switch over gradually introducing just one new meat every few days. Some raw feeders don’t like to mix kibble and raw and will expect puppies to go ‘cold turkey’. If you are going to do this, it might be an idea to let her settle in on her breeder’s food for a couple of weeks first.
I’m sorry I cannot help you with vets, but as you can see from the comments on this article, there are vets who are supportive of raw feeding, or at least willing to work with raw feeding owners. Unfortunately it is pot luck whether you have one in your area.
There are a couple of articles here which may help a bit. And this post describes how I switched my most recent puppy to raw
Good luck with your puppy
Best wishes
Pippa
Excellent article and very informative. Also, some fascinating comments. I have for some time been very concerned about the practice of vets to sell particular brands of very expensive dog foods. Our vets ‘prescribe’ Hill’s Science Plan for a huge range of problems, and you can only buy these products from vets. That, quite frankly, is deceitful and manipulative crap. There are plenty of decent kibbles available without having to pay a premium to a vet collaborating with an avaricious manufacturer. (Royal Canin incidentally are in a great deal of trouble for sponsoring Bear Baiting with dogs in the Ukraine.) (Google it) Whilst I’m sure that there are many decent vets who give the best possible advice, it’s difficult to trust vets when you begin to understand the scale of the deception.
I have been feeding raw, on advice from my vet, for over 5 years now as I bought in a beagle pup who was allergic to EVERY dry complete on the market! She thrived, put on weight and seemed so much happier so I decided to change my other 4 beagles on to raw and have never looked back. I can honestly say that in 5 years we haven’t had an upset tummy (I feed wings on a weekly basis to help keep teeth clean) They are calm and their stools are much firmer and definitely not smelly. On complete they had periodic upset tummies, ate grass and bought up bile most morning and had stinky stools, but since raw nothing like this. It’s easy once you get into a routine, it’s cheaper – clean teeth = clean system generally so no dental costs for them. My vet agrees with it so everyone is happy. Wish I had given raw years ago. May years ago when I was a child we fed tinned meat and biscuits with no problems. I guess that was closer to raw than complete kibble altho I would never feed tinned meat now.
I did have once incident feeding raw but I wouldn’t call it an injury. I was sick and my husband bought some thin pork chops with the bone in to give to the dogs for dinner. One dog got a bone stuck on her teeth and had to go to the vet to have her pull it off. Other than that, I have been feeding raw for years. My vet feeds raw and many of my clients feed raw (I’m a full time dog trainer) and I have yet to see any other issue.
Do you have any brands or particular methods of preparation that you prefer besides the raw chicken and rabbit bones? I’m currently using a combination of a small amount of kibble with freeze dried raw food. I’d love to be able to go all raw but I find the cost and management of the supply tricky to figure out. I know people who have bought their own meat grinders and such…..but it’s a heck of a process.
I applaud your fair-minded approach to the topic of raw feeding. Too often, the online raw groups I joined are populated with zealots who wield a heavy hand over owners who are confused or new to raw feeding. This is certainly one of the most astute articles I have read on the subject.
Like you, I deliberated and researched a long time before switching my adopted lab to raw and took transitional baby-steps from kibble to cooked meat, then BARF and now RMB. Each transitional step took 3 months with a full blood chemistry test at the end of each stage to see whether there was any adverse changes in my dog’s health. It was not cold turkey, but it helped this skeptic ease into feeding raw.
Though I confess, I was mentally going through the steps of doggy CPR the first time my dog had his first raw chicken.
We have never looked back since. My lab is now so much stronger than when I first adopted him (he recently pulled an unprepared friend, who was holding his leash, off his feet) and the only time he gets overly excited is when meeting humans and cats.
I wonder though do rawfed dogs enjoy a significantly increased life-span on average? It’s a question I have never found an answer to.
I always am taken aback by how many people state “we live in a litigious society” without really knowing where they formed that opinion. Certainly it was not in the court rooms of America, bogged down mostly with legitimate civil and criminal suits. So why would a defense to raw be, “I don’t want to get sued.” All it means to me as that your opinion against raw is not based on law. Under the law, a person would have to prove that you, the vet, were the cause of the damage to your pet. Unless the vet produces the raw meat, the chain of causation is broken. To be blunt, the US in not litigious. We have legitimate and ongoing issues of product liability that need to be adjudicated. To say otherwise, or proclaim “Tort Reform!” is a marketing ploy only for businesses that do not want to continue offering substandard and lethal products to consumers. If you must say “I’m against raw,” then please come up with an actual reason, based on science, not on anecdotes or FOX news.
Hi Chris,
This article is not ‘against raw’, did you think it was?
Pippa
I love my vet – she completely supports my decision to feed raw, and even occasionally brings me free meat when she’s cleaning out her freezer!
She’s also not afraid to recommend raw in certain cases – such as exocrine pancreatic insufficiency -when traditional treatments don’t work.
Raw-supportive vets DO exist, folks! Don’t give up!
I have fed raw meat and chick wings/backs/carcass for over 20 years,,no probs,,no skin allergies upset tummies or huge vet bills,the dogs are happy and well,,,All raw food is frozen,,,then defrosted and fed at room temp,,,my 2 week old puppies are given raw chick wings as an introduction to weaning,,,,,,,,
I have 4 saints and a newf, the very biggest 2 saints have both suffered bloat, the last one was just 4 weeks ago!!! He is a 20 month old saint. I have always used raised bowls, which now is a no no according to Liverpool Univerisity and I was using kibble on both occasions. I have now changed to raw and wil let u know how we get on. My vet is very supportive, but I have to say I do worry about how much to feed and are they getting everything they need nutrition wise?
Hi Anne-Marie, you may find some of the articles on this page helpful. Enjoy your raw feeding – your dogs certainly will 🙂
Pippa
I am a golden retriever owner and breeder who has fed as many as twenty-four dogs at a time raw (range over time eight to twenty-four dogs, currently twenty-four with fosters) since 1997, and raised all my puppies on raw since 2000. I have never ever been ill or had a dog become ill from eating raw food. I have virtually no G.I. upsets in my goldens, which was not the case when I fed kibble; and I fed only the “highest quality” kibble (as expensive or more so than raw). I take reasonable precautions that anyone ought when handling raw meat for my own sake. I don’t discuss my dogs’ diet with vets, unless they want to. I have several vets who have gotten puppies from me because they are multi-generation raw-fed. Some of these vets sell Science Diet in their practices, but feed their own dogs raw. Most seem to feel that the typical dog owner is not willing/able to feed raw, and they would probably mess it up somehow. My own puppies are sold to people willing to feed raw and go home with a supply of their ground raw food. I can’t force people to feed raw, but I can choose to sell only to those willing to do so. (If they switch their dogs to processed diets, by my contract their warranties on their puppies are nullified.) I line up suppliers for them and otherwise support them in their efforts to do right by their dogs. None of them has had a dog or person become ill from raw feeding. Many of them have children. I have heard of raw-fed dogs choking or nearly choking, but I’ve also heard of kibble-fed dogs doing so. Ground bones eliminate the possibility. I feed both ground and whole foods myself, including green tripe (hold your nose!) and knuckle bones as “recreational chews” to clean teeth. Never had an impacted dog either. I think the tendency is to over-complicate the practice of raw-feeding when it’s really quite straightforward. I switch kibble-fed dogs (e.g. fosters or boarders) to raw with no transition, and none of them (there have been dozens!) has ever become ill or exhibited even mild upset from this. The dogs are healthy and generally very long-lived, which is quite an accomplishment with goldens. I thought the AVMA’s statement was pretty disingenuous given that they are so closely aligned with the dog food industry, in particular Hills/Science Diet (“What vets feed their pets!”). But the AVMA is also in favor of horse slaughter, so we know that money matters most to them and the good of animals is secondary (or, in their view, dependent upon the money of special interests). Every time they issue such statements, they lose credibility, including with their own members. Many, many veterinary practitioners protested their issuing of the anti-raw proteins statement, I’m pleased to say.
Thanks for sharing your experiences Deirdre, I agree we tend to overcomplicate matters when it comes to raw feeding. We don’t worry nearly so much about feeding our children!
Pippa
Hello. I feed my Staffie raw and have done ever since I adopted him. I would never have come across the idea had I not fostered another dog – ridgeback / lab cross – who was being fed raw tripe in kennels and was in the most fantastic condition. My dog is rippling with vitality and energy but also sleeps contentedly when at home. I do worry about the G I issues so do search the Internet at regular intervals in case there are updates on this. S far no issues, he also tends not to pass wind a lot which is definitely a plus! On the point of wolfing down chicken wings too fast, my dog does the same with the result that I often feed him raw food frozen or partly frozen. He absolutely loves it and it occupies him for longer, especially where gizzards or hearts are concerned, which normally last for two seconds at room temperature.
I also want to add that my dog has always needed a few go’s to get used to different food. He didn’t understand raw chicken at first and merely sniffed at it, now he loves it.
I love raw because I can monitor exactly how my dog reacts to different foods. Pork, for instance, makes him a bit gassy. And I have noticed that he doesn’t do well with white ( non oily) fish as it gives him the runs. My butcher often gives me a lot of scraps and left over bones and I love the fact that, with every one of my dog’s meals, less “unwanted” meat (such as lungs, or chicken carcasses or pig tails) are going to waste.
Lastly, I know those looks other dog owners give you sometimes when you say you are feeding raw but then I look at the ingredients list of even premium dog food and I think: would most people feed most of those individual ingredients to their dogs if they knew what they are? I’ve not that much against a few carbs but I’d prefer them to come from the left overs of my (human) meals than in heavily processed form. Processed food just cannot be as good for any mammal as fresh, can it? Also I can’t say that I can trust big companies where food is concerned, especially pet food where they are under far less scrutiny. I am sure the profit margins are unbelievably high.
Thanks for your comment Stephanie, it is great to have a helpful local butcher 🙂
I adopted a 12wk old lab over 3 yrs ago now, he had a very runny tummy and i tried every brand of ( premium) kibble you can find, nothing seemed to agree with him and he was very very miserable. After a lot of research on the internet i decided to feed him raw green tripe, the result was instant, no smelly runny poop and a happy bouncing puppy, he has never looked back. I tend not to feed minced raw meat as i like to actually see what he is eating and i also feel that chewing chunks of meat massage and clean his gums and teeth (everyone comments on how white his teeth are). He has never been keen on raw chicken or pork but he does like duck carcasses, duck necks (free range) whole lambs tripe, venison neck, goat, beef heart, meaty lamb ribs, lambs liver, lamb neck and lamb heads. he also has two whole raw organic eggs and one tin of sardines or fresh sprats each week. I should also mention that he lives with me on a farm and he likes to lick out the horses feed bowls each day which contained alpha alpha, soaked sugar beet pulp, brewers yeast, seaweed and micronised linseed. He also likes to eat the hoof trimmings when my farrier comes every five weeks. Strangely for a lab he never has the urge to eat horse or cow poop, never tries to steal food and when his friends come to stay he just sniffs at their kibble and turns away!!!
Thanks for a great read. I have my switched my dogs to a raw food diet, frozen patties that are premade from a raw food company and have added fruit and veges for a more rounded diet. My dogs love it but my vet just tried to scare me away by bringing up the salmonella word!!! I find it a bit costly so am thinking about going kibble in morning and raw in evening, 50/50 diet. My Mom has a naturalpathic vet who doesn’t think this is a good idea as it confuses the dogs digestive system. Is this harmful to a dogs health?
Hi Carol, there are plenty of theories as to whether mixing the two types of diet is ok (I know a vet that does this) but very little evidence I’m afraid. To my mind, you lose may lose the benefits of both systems (convenience of kibble, nice clean teeth on raw for example) by mixing the two systems. Pippa
Hi Pippa,
I recently started feeding my staffie x a raw diet and she is thriving. I used to feed her wet food with mixer but then started reading more about raw feeding and all the rubbish that goes in to wet foof and kibble so decided to change over. I also have a 4 month old working lab who was weaned on to Royal Canin so I have kept him on it, but will change him over to raw.
My reason for making a comment is that I read recently that amongst other foods pork is poisonous to dogs. Is this true? I cant remember where I read this, I think it was in a post on Facebook.
Many thanks for your article as a new raw feeder I found it very interesting.
Hi Kathleen,glad you found the article interesting. Pork is not poisonous to dogs. I feed pork regularly. 🙂 Pippa
Thanks Pippa
Thank you so much for this post! I got a wild hair and decided to switch our senior border collie to prepared raw. I don’t think it’s ever something our vet is going to recommend, but he knows I do my research regarding our pets’ health and probably won’t give me flack about it. We haven’t been in to see him since the switch. Our girl has done very well on a good quality kibble for 12+ years, but some recent blood work came back a little wonky and she’s been having arthritis issues for some time. I’m also having a different vet come over for acupuncture treatments and I’m giving a couple of supplements she recommended. Our regular vet knows about this and figures “why not? it won’t hurt”. I like being able to cobble together an integrative approach to our girl’s care, and it’s helping. She LOVES the raw food and it hasn’t caused any problems after being on it about a month. I’ll have blood work done for her again in the near future.
I’ve done additional research on feeding “real” raw with raw chicken parts and such, and for me, it’s too much hassle and mess. Believe me, I understand the pros and cons of prepared raw vs. “raw” raw, but it’s just not an option.
Something not at all surprising is that when I posted on Facebook that I was switching our girl to raw, I got blowback from a vet’s wife who I “know” through Facebook. She sent a private message telling me it’s a bad idea and I’m risking my dog’s health. When I explained I had done my research and never take my pets’ health lightly, she told me flat out I was wrong and sent me a link to the AVMA position.
Hi Pippa
We have a three year old springer/poodle cross, who has for sometime been constantly scratching, biting her feet and at one point she had rubbed all the fur away from the side of her neck by scratching. Our vet (who is young and we feel very keen for us to spend as much money as possible) insisted we had blood test done, at the same time as putting her on antibiotics and steroids. Then she said we needed to do 12 week food trial with ‘Hills z/d, I argued with this as it seemed pointless if she was taking the steriods and that it would skew the results. She kept arguing the point and so we did the trial of only that food, and literally nothing else. Our dog seemed to think that she was being punished and got very depressed not every having any sort of tip-bit. The bloods came back to say that she had an allergy to dust mites and storage mites (not to food). I met someone with a Poodle who had had skin trouble and said that a raw meat diet had really helped . This also got me thinking that kibbles, were probably stored in great big vats, where storage mites would probably be rife. When we told our vet that we were trying a raw food diet she was extremely upset with us, saying about the bone splinters, salmonella etc. She wants us to get a serum made up in Holland and to inject her on a daily basis to ‘de-sensitise her to the mites. We are aware that will put our insurance costs through the roof and we really do feel that this could be a money making exercise. We have just started to try ‘Nutriment’ a frozen raw meat/fish that comes in easy to use packs that can go straight in the freezer. Do you have any opinion of this type of raw food. I have only just realised that people feed their animals on raw food, and so was fascinated to read your article and to read of others experiences. I will be reading a lot more now to hopefully, get some more opinions and options.
I haven’t tried ready made raw foods I’m afraid so can’t comment. I hope you get on top of your dog’s allergies though. Best wishes, Pippa
Hi,
A year ago we bought a twelve week old working cocker spaniel. Since we got him he suffered from really bad tummy problems and lose stools. He was very unhappy and had terrible skin and a dull coat. We tried everything but nothing worked. However we were out on a walk one day and we saw a gorgeous whippet and he suggested raw to us. Ever since we switched him to a raw diet he has been the happiest, healthiest dog around. His coat now shines and he has lovely skin and his stools are smaller and firm. We are never going to feed our dogs kibble or wet food again.
Thankyou,I’ve not long switched and was getting a bit concerned to see if I was doing the right thing and yes I am,my dogs love they’re raw food with fresh veg so I’m sticking with it xx
I have a 7 month old Miniature Schnauzer who thrives mostly on raw home made dog food with added organic vegetables and also organic hemp protein powder. I use only free-range organic meats. I also give her, after a meal to cleanse her teeth, a raw chicken wing which she crunches up and swallows without any dramas. The only occasional dried dog food I give her is “Deliganics” which is totally organic and comes from New Zealand and contains no preservatives or nasties that regular commercial dried dog food contains. My previous Miniature Schnauzer lived to be almost 14 years but was fed on commercial dog food all her life. During the last five years of her life she had one health issue after another, resulting in gum disease, liver and kidney disease, seizures and brain tumors!!! I am NOT subjecting my new little Schnauzer to the same fate! Do your own research and see a Holistic Vet!
I am in a real quandary as my 2 dogs are due their annual vaccinations soon. Firstly, I want to question whether they actually need them although I know the answer will be yes from the vet. In addition I may need to put them briefly into kennels and so I will have to vaccinate in order to be able to do this.
Secondly, I am probably going to lie to the vet when they ask what they are fed (raw) because I do not want to have the conversation that will ensue. One of the dogs has recently showed some signs of an allergy but I don’t want her to end up on steroids and some ridiculously priced kibble whose ingredients I don’t know. I am trying desperately to find a local raw-friendly vet but have failed to do so. Do I give in and just buy the highest quality kibble available? I really don’t want to but I feel that my options are very limited.
Whether or not your dogs actually need their vaccinations will depend entirely on whether or not they still have some natural immunity from the last ones. Vaccination protocols have changed in the last few years so ask your vet which vaccinations he thinks your dog needs. It will depend on what he received last year. Some diseases still need an annual jab others are now done every three years or more. You can also ask your vet for a titer test if you want to know whether your dog still has immunity.
There are raw friendly vets about, but they can be hard to track down 🙂
I was doing some reading on the net about BARF when i came across your article, i have an 8mth old Springer who is not food orientated at all, she has dry kibble which she won`t eat on it`s own and isn`t very keen on canned dog food. Her favourite food is Salmon, white fish and sardines, she will eat cooked chicken and Beef, but i am now wondering whether the time is right to try her on BARF, your article was very well balanced and has given me a bit more confidence in feeding her raw food.
Hi there, do join my forum so we can help you 🙂 See you there! http://thelabradorforum.com – you don’t need a labrador!